Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Mr. Steffman on August 2, 2017 at 8:23am

"SFP Autographs" and "Stupid Famous People" were two different channels.

The mini-expansion of "SFP Autographs" from the paparazzi brand was only meant to be used in the same way "TMZ" is used, with the abbreviation "SFP" serving as a stand-alone brand in itself, similarly to how no one refers to TMZ as "Thirty Mile Zone."

Regardless, the word "stupid" (on the channel "Stupid Famous People") doesn't suggest that celebrities are unintelligent, it's used rather as "an expression of exasperation or boredom." It's a direct response to the over-exposure and over-saturation of celebrity culture and being tired of it all. It's intentionally ironic because the channel itself contributes to and drives that culture. (170 million video views.)

Who really cares what the brand is called anyway. I just wanted to clarify though.

A fan now owns a ball with exact video proof and it's likely remained a prize possession to them ever since they bought it. That's the entire purpose of an autograph service, and there's no reason not to celebrate a success.

I have no idea what that comment about the ball sale was in response to though, since you cut that part off in the screenshot. Likely it was just grapher to grapher chatter, which was then trolled on by a delusional/jealous fan with little to no real familiarity of the business or Waters' own accepting perspective. I like how you kept the hater on there though, that's funny.

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Permalink Reply by PFCollector on August 2, 2017 at 3:23pm

It's on the video where Roger refuses to sign a ball. It wasn't a response to anything, it was a comment that was made by SFP autographs account stating why he won't sign baseballs (essentially because they ruined it) The response was the "hater" responding to your comment (or whoever made it from that account). It sounded more like rubbing in the fact that you ruined other people's chance to get a baseball signed, than celebrating a success. It would have been a little different if you had said I got a baseball signed that went to a happy fan... instead of saying you selling a baseball for $400 is the reason he won't sign baseballs... But either way I don't collect baseballs so it doesn't offend me any if he doesn't sign them.

Like I said in my previous comments I don't have any problem with dealers. But there's a difference between getting a few signatures to sell and paying homeless people to get dozens of them to take advantage of the signer/homeless. Whether Roger signed like that before or not, he must have changed his mind since then if he's limiting to one and has complained in the past about eBayers, as well as at the current tour, won't sign pickguards/instruments, etc.

He's not the only one either. Watch the TMZ clip of George Lucas telling autograph hounds to get a real job. Now he refuses to sign. If They had gotten 1 or 2 and left not keep hounding him to sign 15 things he'd probably have no problem with it... Same concept.

Here's the video in case you want to review the comment someone made from SFP account.
https://youtu.be/03lPZfeEqRI

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Permalink Reply by a pug called eva on August 2, 2017 at 9:07pm

What on earth does Roger Waters have to do with baseball anyway?

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Permalink Reply by Paul on August 2, 2017 at 11:25pm

Well said Pfcollector!!
You know what, it's only going to get worse with the likes of racc!

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Permalink Reply by Peter C. on August 3, 2017 at 3:07am

Sorry man, but this is wrong because of these reasons:
1.) Roger Waters is songwriter and musician - why the hell even ask him to sign baseball? What does he has to do with baseball?

2.) "fan now owns a ball.... that´s entire purpose of an autograph service." - I´m going to be a bit.... hard now. But I dont think that EVERYTHING should be seen as subject of market. Buying / selling item may have a point in case of stars who arent alive anymore, but if you really were a fan, RW was one of the easiest guys to obtain him personally! And if you rather support this greedy business rather than do it by yourself, sorry - then you probably dont deserve that autograph itself. Autograph of star isnt something which EVERYONE should have a right and everyone who is willing to pay enough money should be able to get it. THIS particular thing is what I see as completely wrong in current situation. You can buy whatever you want if you are willing to pay enough money - and this also motivates dealers to act as they do - as complete idiots without any basic respect and decency. Money, exploitation and greed is winning over basic respect. I simply cant have ANY respect to idiots who are pushing stuff through slightly opened car windows to get them signed, I simply cant have any respect to guys who are paying homeless people to avoid one per person rules etc. I simply cant have any respect to people who seems to think or feel they are ENTITLED to get an autograph from any star for free and sell it immediately for XXX dollars...

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Permalink Reply by Paul on August 3, 2017 at 3:51am

Well said ger, i agree completely. Well i believe these dealers will completely destroy the modern autograph hobby, esp with the birth of certain facebook groups, it wont survive.

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Permalink Reply by Devon Laney on August 2, 2017 at 9:42pm

I heard Roger did not stop & sign in Detroit today either.

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Permalink Reply by Jason Charnick on August 3, 2017 at 9:46am

Well, it appears the conversation has gotten a little far afield from just Rog to the usual dealers vs. collectors situation, and I wanted to follow up on my first post after hearing some of the opinions of my fellow collectors. I think it behooves us all to try and find some common ground for the long term strength of our hobby. I won't direct any of my points to any one individual, as I don't want anyone to think I'm attacking them. Many of you on this thread have been good friends to me as my collection has grown over the past few years, both with purchased items and personally obtained graphs as well. But the bickering, although often fun to read, can grow weary, and I hope we can all reassess our opinions and keep ourselves open to a different way of doing things.

1) Roger signing baseballs - No one has ANY right to tell someone else what they can collect. I learned that fact hard a while ago on a hockey card collectors board when I inadvertently insulted someone for collecting differently than me. I have a friend who was a producer on one of the biggest shows of the decade, and he's a huge baseball fan. He put the two together and has one hell of a collection of celebrity autographed baseballs. There are others. There are also people who like to collect Presidents and other heads of state on baseballs. Nothing more American than a President on a baseball! (Other than if they signed an apple pie, I suppose.) Either way, if someone wants Roger or any other musician to sign a baseball, no one has the right to lay any judgement on that fact alone.

2) Exploitation - Now, if that signed baseball was obtained by paying a homeless guy, this needs to be excoriated in no uncertain terms by ALL the other, more scrupulous dealers. There is no getting around this fact. I know not everyone likes RACC here at AML, but there are a smattering of us that do. I think Justin and the other admins run a fun group, for dealers and collectors alike. Most importantly, THEY CARE ABOUT THE INK. I've only ever bought ONE item on there (which I'll get to in a sec) but I LOVE seeing the wide variety of items people show off there, and I probably will buy there again someday when I see something I dig.

That being said, I haven't seen anyone there mention this Rog incident (though it's easy to lose a post or two in an ever changing FB news feed), and it's a shame. The good dealers there and here on AML need to shun these bastards. It simply can not be overstated how DISGUSTING and UNACCEPTABLE it is to use a homeless person like that, and it's in EVERYONE'S best interest to get these losers as far away from our hobby as possible.

3) Entitlement (Collectors) - To those collectors who say if you don't get it yourself, you don't deserve the graph, I say that's poppycock. When I purchased my Roger signed DSoTM, I did so years ago when I didn't know he was ever going to tour again, plus it had Rick on it, which as we know, he isn't signing anymore, RIP. Now when this tour came around, I unfortunately had to miss the show, but even if I had gone, it saved me the trouble and hassle of getting his autograph in person. Plus my wife does not like when I go for graphs, so I don't do it very often anymore. Making my purchase does not make me any less of a Pink Floyd fan than any of you, and I'll assert this fact about any autograph subject from now until I get an RIP after my name as well.

4) Entitlement (Dealers) - And while I didn't want to mention specific names, I think it was PFCollector who pointed out a link to the George Lucas TMZ video. This video was obtained by a dealer on RACC, and I watched the whole thing a while ago. While I do think whenever a celebrity wants to stop signing, you MUST stop bothering him (I mean, it's common respect, I don't know why it's so hard). You're simply NOT entitled to anyone's autograph simply because you've made it your job, or because you waited, or found out what hotel they're staying in. It's true that a lot of these dealers (especially this one guy, GTV - Giovanni, right?) video tape their exploits in an attempt to authenticate the graphs they sell, but when I see dealers chase celebrities down in their cars, running from block to block... it's embarrassing to me. They might not feel that way, and that's great, but it's how I feel. And apparently some celebs don't mind GTV's antics, but it just leaves a little ick in my mouth to watch the lengths he'll go to. I like seeing that the graph is authentic, but I'm far less apt to purchase something from someone who not only goes to these lengths, but advertises it as well. 

On the flip-side, Lucas was outmatched on more than one instance with his mouth as well. I'm not a Star Wars fan, and have no interest in his autograph, but there was one moment in the video where he says how the dealers are ruining it because he signs for free for the real fans... Oh yeah, where are these free Lucas autos he's promising? Where can my friends get one who are HUGE into SW? Fact is, I don't think they exist. Look how hard it is to get him in the first place. You think a regular Joe can just go up to him and get one signed without being subjected to similar statements he made on that tape? But you're right, dealers created that atmosphere, and have to answer for it. You don't get to "rack" just because you're a dealer. Take your ONE, call it victory and leave the man alone when he gets into his car! But George, don't delude yourself into thinking you're a man of the people, sometimes fan need to resort to these purchases to get a signature from a man they admire.

I wanted to have an equal amount of points for both "sides" so I could feel comfortable in trying to establish a common bond between us, as many dealers are allowed to be collectors too, no? And vice versa. As I mentioned, I only ever bought one item from RACC, a playbill signed by the cast of Finding Neverland. My wife went to high school with the lead actor and we were lucky enough to meet him backstage after his final performance. My wife was ADAMANT that I wasn't allowed to ask for his autograph, or even get Kelsey Grammer, so I bought the playbill instead. A RACC dealer filled that gap for me, and I'm glad I had the chance to do so without embarrassing my wife! I don't collect Funko Pops, and can't stand modern-day celebs chicken scratch, but I like seeing what others get, so RACC works for me.

But on the flip-side, RACC dealers need to do a more vocal job of weeding out the bad dealers who exploit, use, and abuse others, and not use the "but we're providing a service for fans who can't get them otherwise" in every instance. You can see be a upstanding dealer and provide that service while still shining a light on the rats who give you a bad name.

Most importantly, for me at least, the ink is still the thing. Forgers and those who traffic in counterfeit goods need to get thrown overboard first, but to those that use and abuse those let fortunate to get a couple of bucks, even if the graph is genuine, shouldn't be far behind. Let pool our common resources and common ground to make sure that happens.

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Permalink Reply by J. Mikael on August 3, 2017 at 12:03pm

Agreed on most points.

Distastefulness of the practice (and it's harmfulness to the hobby in general) aside, I'm curious as to why people seem to feel these helpers, homeless or otherwise, should be treated more like equal partners rather than salaried employees? Their only investment was at most a few hours of their time, for which they were compensated (or should be regardless of the outcome).

The dealers on the other hand made the investment (e.g. albums), and provided the opportunity, with no guarantee of profit (or break-even for that matter) if things don't pan out (like what finally happened).

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Permalink Reply by PFCollector on August 3, 2017 at 12:24pm

I agree on pretty much everything. As I tried to say it's not that I have a problem with dealers. It's the way some dealers were getting the autographs and exploiting the situation. There were probably plenty of dealers in line that I would have had no clue were dealers... because they didn't line up homeless people by the fence and pay them while collecting dozens of autographs, almost causing a fight in one instance. If someone respectfully gets a few and sells them without being blatantly obvious about it then that's perfectly okay. As I said in a previous post, I don't live in NY or LA or even at least a few hours from a good sized city, so I do buy autographs as I'm not able to get them myself.

I think George Lucas meant he signs free for fans... aka not the guys with 15 photos stacked up shoving them in his face and begging for more after he says he's done. That's where I think the more discreet dealers are just fine... they fill the gap of getting signatures for fans that can't get them in person, but don't sour the celeb on signing.

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Permalink Reply by Mr. Steffman on August 3, 2017 at 12:30pm

+1 Jason. One of the best comments I've read in a long time.

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Permalink Reply by Michael Kasmar-AutographPros.com on August 3, 2017 at 12:31pm

Jason thank you for what is clearly a well thought out post and I commend you on its intent. In regards to the guys who hired homeless and worse didn't even pay them, that discussion was moved to the RACC Trusted Seller Page. RACC is meant to be a positive environment free from drama and bs. All you have to do is visit a few of the other FB autograph groups to see how quickly those types of conversations can spiral out of control. "Keyboard Warriors" and such... Instead it was handled in a business-like manner and any individuals brought up were made sure to be banned from RACC. Don't worry, our goals like everyone's are keeping the community safe and clean. We've never had a problem taking out the trash.

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