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Third Party Authentication Services. Does it matter?

My Dad had a saying and it goes, "If a tree falls in the forest and nobody is around to hear it, does it still make a sound?". The answer, of course, is yes. But does the sound matter?

This analogy can apply to autographs in today's marketplace. If a famous celebrity signs an autograph for a fan and no recognized third party authentication service can verify it, is it still authentic? The answer is yes but does it matter?

Agree with it or not, third party authentication services are here to stay and continue to have a profound influence on the hobby. Those who think otherwise are fooling themselves.

And when it comes time to sell you can expect that your buyer will likely expect your autograph to already be authenticated or will likely submit it to a TPA for verification. When that happens you may be blindsided by the results.

You may be the most honest person on the planet and your autograph may actually be authentic. But does it matter?

Not nearly as much as you think.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Rich on July 12, 2020 at 4:37pm

This premise seems to imply two things: 1) Every autograph must be able to be bought and sold to have any value and 2) The TPAs are nearly perfect (or at least really, really good) at what they do, will remain so and have unmatched integrity.

In my opinion, a solid no to both. I'm also interested mainly in music, and TPAs are largely trash in that area on a number of counts. Their blessing doesn't automatically make your item any more or less valuable overall, only to people who buy into their act.

Something that rarely seem to be addressed is that these companies will almost inevitably fail at some point, or at least decline in quality to the point where their opinion isn't held in the same regard sometime in the future. Then what - especially if you have their ugly sticker slapped on the front?

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Permalink Reply by Paul on July 12, 2020 at 4:52pm

Recently i bid on an autograph from an auction house and they use Tpa's but if i won the book i wasnt going to pay 100 dollars for their coa!

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Permalink Reply by Kelvin Anthony on July 12, 2020 at 8:21pm

Only after joining this forum have I seen people who:

1) Don't hold TPAs in high regard

2) Prefer not to have TPA stickers/ certs

Yes, it's possible that some day these companies will inevitably fail but I don't think that will happen. Because without them, who else will govern this hobby?

It's easier to sell a regular person (who make up the majority of buyers) a TPA autograph rather than to tell them "My friend Rich said it's real". Of course, serious collectors/ purists won't need TPA opinion. But then, they'd have to find other purists to sell their autographs in the future.

And then there are buyers who purchase autos with home-made COAs haha. Those are the worst and a whole other problem.

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Permalink Reply by Paul on July 12, 2020 at 8:23pm

My favorite thing to see is one Tpa, tears up anothers coa and writes his own coa for the item.

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Permalink Reply by Rich on July 12, 2020 at 9:54pm

I don't think that governing the hobby is what they actually do, though they'd like us to think so. I've gone on my rants about TPAs, based on (I feel) common sense and observation. Full disclosure: I've owned only a few items with TPA stickers in the past and had a grand total of one transaction/interaction with them (PSA, about 9 years ago - who were even crappier than I expected).

Here are my main three issues:

1) From the ground level, what these firms offer basically doesn't really exist - that is, a fully comprehensive knowledge of autographs in all areas, of all eras. This includes a complete awareness ofd secretarials/ghost-signers, autopens, major forgery rings, etc. This includes major and minor stars in areas of movies, music, politics, you name it.

I'll be more blunt: If we're talking about a full range of autographs out there, what percentage of these do you suppose these authenticators or authentication teams have a genuinely expert level knowledge of? I'll go even further: What percentage of autographs out there do they have an even have a marginal awareness of? The answer, any way you argue it, it really damned low.

I understand the inevitable counterargument is that these TPA's have massive resources at their disposal, with an encyclopedic database. The problem with that is that, regardless of what they have as far as an information library, we're still stuck with the same problem.

In summary, there are insane thousands and thousands of autographs of people they've never heard of, that they have no clue about and have no reference for. And when they do have the references for them, they're based on what exactly? Let's say someone sends in their autograph of a hot new rising star. Is PSA going to have a clue? Will they know where to look, who to consult? If so, who are these people and why do they trust them?

2) In cases where the TPA doesn't know, doesn't know who knows and don't have the required resources immediately at hand, are they going to put in the work to find the answer? I realize this comes off as speculative and accusatory, but I'd say the answer is inevitably a big "no."

This is a numbers game, and all of these companies operate in a quick fire fashion that requires a pace that maxes out their cash intake. Is anyone there going to spend an hour on some indie music artists you spent maybe $25 to have authenticated?

3) These companies put quality work, ethical practices and customer service far below profit. The business partnerships they all have with certain dubious companies completely undermine their integrity. Anything inconclusive or even somewhat questionable gets a pass if someone's regularly stuffing cash down their pants. To go back to you're "dude says it's real so it must be" argument, that's exactly how they operate a lot of the time. These companies have been duped repeatedly by this approach.

While I understand that the original post was about perception being the reality, you have to understand what a slippery slope that is. I don't think many people here are entirely interested in making people feel better so much as collecting and discussing authentic autographs. If it all comes down to perception of the purchaser or recipient, you can just as easily argue that selling or giving them a forgery is alright as long as they think it's real.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 13, 2020 at 2:14am

I do not see TPA services as a form of governing body. They are more like referees. When a dispute arises between two parties how else can it be resolved? Currently, TPA services have the most influence in this area.

TPA services will come and go but I believe they will remain in some form or another. It's an imperfect system but it's the best we currently have. They are better than nothing at all.

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Permalink Reply by Rich on July 13, 2020 at 6:45am

The hobby existed for many years before TPAs. Granted, forgeries are probably worse than they were decades earlier to the point where policing authorities are probably seen as more necessary. On the other hand, communities such as AML are arguably far more effective than TPAs.

While the referee analogy is probably a bit more on target, I'm pretty sure some fans might call foul of one of the boxers in a fight was handing the ref a wad of cash prior to the bout. TPA's authority is severely undermined by inherent ulterior motives.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on July 13, 2020 at 7:05am

The hobby was much smaller before the Internet. And there were many forgeries being sold and traded long before the Internet. The difference is the Internet. More exposure. The good, bad, and ugly is out there for all to see.

This is, in my opinion, the best informational site on the Internet for accurate information. It is a great starting point. Most of the opinions here are on target. But, this is just a starting point. We opine but do not authenticate. The only cost is someone's time to learn for themselves.

This is a paranoid hobby. More and more people want the extra security that comes with a recognized piece of paper. That is simply stating the reality of today's marketplace.

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Permalink Reply by Kelvin Anthony on July 13, 2020 at 7:17am

Speaking of people who've been in the game for a long time, what are your long term plans with your collection?

As a newbie, I'm just excited as I embark on this journey of collecting and hunting etc. But for those of you who have done it for a long time, what are your plans? Will you sell it as you get older? Hand them down to your kids?

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Permalink Reply by Rich on July 13, 2020 at 7:21am

Good question. I've switched gears on collecting to almost entirely music, something of a product of going to more and more concerts over the past several years. Many of the items are personalized to me (by my own request). As far as everything else, I've already downsized somewhat over the past several years and tend to eventually sell things that don't have as much meaning to me.

I do it mostly for fun and try not to put too much weight into it, so I guess we'll see going forward.

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Permalink Reply by Kelvin Anthony on July 13, 2020 at 7:33am

I see. I kinda understand when you say "tend to eventually sell things that don't have as much meaning to me." I also collect Michael Jackson memorabilia. When I started about 20 years ago, I wanted to get everything that I couldn't get as a kid. And I did. After a while I realised, out of everything, I only really wanted a couple of them which I keep to this day.

So now with this hobby, I'm just thinking of every celebrity who had an impact on me, inspired me. Those are the ones I want to collect. But I also don't want to get too carried away.

Must be quite a thrill to get your autos in person. Do you also get a picture taken with them?