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Current List of Rules for the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum.

Hello All, 

Here is where I am now (Thursday Jun 24th, 2021):

NOTE: All offerings will be reviewed by the mods in place and are subject to revision/correction etc.. 

1) Every autograph offered must have a meaningful lifetime guarantee of authenticity between and mutually understood by the seller and buyer. ALM can not enforce returns or refunds - this is an honor-code system. However, any member found to be knowingly selling forgeries will be permanently banned. A group of members led by Steve can settle disputes where the buyer says it's not real and the seller maintains it is. Use of the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum is an agreement to abide by Steve's decision.

2) New members must wait 30 days to sell and must be active (at least 2 substantive posts a week) before offering items.

3) Be sure to state your return policy. 2 weeks for problem items/misrepresented items. The seller can set the return privilege terms if the buyer just changes their mind. If there's a disagreement the buyer and seller can't settle themselves, Steve will decide. Use of the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum is an agreement to abide by Steve's decision.

4) Sellers - do your homework to make sure you're confident the item is genuine before you offer it for sale, and add "Buyers - make sure you're comfortable with authenticity before you buy" to your listing.

5) Large clear images of front and back must be shown.

6) Please describe the condition of the item verbally. All flaws must be mentioned.

7) Are you the original owner? Make sure the buyer understands if your certificate is non-transferable.

8) Any certificates/LOA's must be shown clearly.

9) Quick Opinions/Pre-certs may not be used to assist a sale.

10) Please await some opinions from our members before selling - it is hoped that members will add their opinions to posts.

11) Everything should be publicly priced for a sale or trade, terms posted. Shipping costs must be stated - they may be included or worked out between the seller and buyer. If International shipping is acceptable please mention this. Buyer assumes all customs fees/import taxes etc.

12) Be sure to state PP payment accepted only without using "Friends and Family" (buyers - using "Friends and Family" removes protections in place for you).

NOTE: Use of the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum is an agreement to abide by these rules. Further, use of the Buy/Sell/Trade Forum is to agree that AML is not liable in any way for anything.

NOTE: NO chasing down new members looking for something you have and want to sell. Absolutely no. That's because a lot of new people think that all longtime members know their stuff and the seller may not. If the buying member wants something they can put a want ad in the group or a member who has it can offer it for sale in the group.

Any further suggestions? I tried to keep it down to 12.

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Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Eddy on June 23, 2021 at 6:59am

I remembered seeing the beginnings of the Patrick Henry thread.  At the time I meant to comment but didn't simply because I think I got distracted and lost track of it.  I'm going to give that discussion a bump now with an initial thought on Patrick Henry now that my memory has been jogged.

Permalink Reply by M. on June 23, 2021 at 4:08pm

I only skimmed the other discussion about the rules, and tried to read through most of this one, but I think I'm missing something...

Re. #1: I understand the rule in theory, but I don't understand it in practice. Unless AL is also acting as an escrow service or payment processor, how is this actually enforceable?

ex. Buyer says it's fake. Seller disagrees. Panel convenes and decides it's fake... the only punitive action that AL can enact would be banning the Seller from AL - they can't actually make anyone return any money, right?

Also, assuming what I just said is true, then this is all basically a "gentleman's agreement"/honor-based, in which case the term "guarantee" is being used rather loosely. I'm concerned this rule requiring "a meaningful lifetime guarantee of authenticity" may mislead inexperienced Buyers into thinking they have a greater level of protection than they do.

Re. #3: Same issue - both parties, the Buyer and the Seller, are agreeing to have Steve be the adjudicator by buying or selling on AL, but what if they disagree with his decision? Again, if a Seller still refuses to accept a return, then they'll presumably be banned, but the Buyer's still stuck with the item. Even assuming PayPal's the payment processor, does AL have enough influence on the Resolution Team to have any sort of influence on decisions?

In my opinion, #4 needs to be emphasized as should the disclaimer that any transactions through AL are essentially honor-code based.


Re. #2: You may want to add "substantive" to the two post requirement. When I've helped teach courses online due to the Pandemic, we've had post expectations, and adding "substantive" somewhat reduced (but did not eliminate) posts that demonstrated no more brain function/contribution than would be required to simply log-in. For example, there's a discussion here that is almost entirely people just saying "Following" or the like for no discernible reason.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 24, 2021 at 10:44am

Hi M,

Thanks for your feedback. Replies:

1. PayPal or other payment systems that help protect the buyer will be the first avenue, but if it's after their buyer protection period we can help settle disputes. I have no input in PayPal's resolution team BTW. 

We are not an escrow service. The guarantee of authenticity is enforceable legally but that's between buyer and seller. But if someone is knowingly selling questionable items or doesn't carefully check authenticity before they sell, we'll boot them from AML forever, and rip them a new one on their way out the door.

2. I like "substantive." I appreciate benefiting from your experience.

3: If people want to buy or sell here they'll have to agree to go by our rules. The final ones will be clear. 

4. Yes, all members who use the BST groups will have to agree that we aren't liable for anything related to it.

Permalink Reply by Joe W. on June 23, 2021 at 7:18pm

First, I wish to extend my appreciation for all of Eric's hard work. It's a difficult task and it will be impossible to please everyone or make it foolproof.

Second, it would be nice if there was a buy, sell, or trade board again. But...

Third, Have a review panel review and approve the listing before it can be offered. If it passes their approval, let it go public. If not, remove it.

Fourth, Autograph Live should just have a "disclaimer" with a caveat emptor. 

Allow sellers to offer their autographs with their own terms and conditions clearly stated. Let the buyer decide if that works for them. 

The simpler the better.

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on June 23, 2021 at 10:25pm

Thanks Joe. Much appreciated :) Working on the disclaimer. Remember you commented on its first evolution?  

"...Allow sellers to offer their autographs with their own terms and conditions clearly stated. Let the buyer decide if that works for them. 

The simpler the better...."

Will this not create a multitude of different things to look after? I don't think we want that. Consistency is the goal here I think, for several reasons.

Thank you,

Eric

Permalink Reply by Joe W. on June 24, 2021 at 3:43am

Might be better if a listing form is created. Fill in all the necessary blanks.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 24, 2021 at 10:25am

We can't use a form unfortunately.

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 24, 2021 at 10:51am

1) +1

2) A lot of people want it. Hopefully we can do it.

3) I like the idea but it's too much work. I'd frankly rather everyone use a reputable TPA but I'm not requiring that for now. Let's see if we can do it without first.

4) Yes, disclaim and make sure everyone understands the rules before using BST.

5) Every autograph must come with a solid, enforceable lifetime guarantee of authenticity to the original purchaser at least. I won't reopen BST without that rule. 

It'll be as simple as possible but the rules have to be utterly clear and agreed to by each participant. 

Permalink Reply by marc e on June 23, 2021 at 10:40pm

eric  like the updated rules good job

i think u coverd all

u can always message me if u need help as usual

Permalink Reply by marc e on June 23, 2021 at 10:47pm
.EXAMPLE
WHEN I SELL ON RACC THIS IS PART OF MY LISTING FOR PRICE AND FEES AND SHIPPING AND MAKES IT VERY EASY FOR THE BUYER ,ITS A ALL IN ONE PRICE VERY SIMPLE NO ADDING 3% OR 5 % LIKE SELLERS LIKE TO DO TO COVER PAYPALL FEES  OR OTHER STUFF.
I personaly got it
150$ includes all in the united states .if overseas please ask
I personally had him sign it.
please pm me if u have questions
SHIPPING INSURANCE AND ALL FEES ARE INCLUDED IN THE PRICE IF GOING TO THE UNITES STATES
Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on June 24, 2021 at 10:53am

Marc,

Good way to do things and good terms.

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on June 24, 2021 at 12:12pm

Steve, All - I have incorporated the latest suggestions as best I could into the list of rules. Thank you all for your suggestions/improvements. Your help is appreciated.

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