Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Null on March 23, 2015 at 12:46pm

Why do people pay more for authentic items with PSA/DNA certs than authentic items without any certs?

-For people dead set on getting something PSA/DNA certified, this is their "insurance" for their item. It makes them feel more comfortable with their purchase. The same reason why before I buy a car I pay extra for my own mechanic to look at it. When I buy jewelry I pay extra to have it appraised, because I don't know the different between a $5 diamond, and a $5,000 diamond. It's all about being comfortable with the purchase. 

In most cases the PSA/DNA certification does not increase the value that much. For example a typical Mantle 8x10 with no COA will sell for $150ish, if it had a PSA/DNA LOA, maybe $225. The LOA alone costs $100 for Mantle, thus not even really being worth getting. It really is like "buying the warranty" with a laptop or something from Best Buy. (Even though it's just a piece of paper). 

That being said, if I was buying an autograph of someone I was not familiar with, I would most definitely spend the extra $5-$10 for a PSA/DNA version if it was side by side with an certified one.

Why do auction houses with prestigious reputations get more for their authentic material than you or I would get on our own for the same authentic material?

-You answered this in your question, because they have "prestigious reputations". These are high-rolling bidders, not the type that sit at home searching on eBay for deals all day. People trust a reputable auction house selling tons of historical stuff more than Joe Schmo on eBay selling a Mantle ball...

It seems to me at least, that the very existence of all these forgeries drives the price of authentic material much higher

-I see your point, but I disagree. I think the massive amount of forgeries most certainly devalues our authentic pieces. It's not the reputable Auction Houses taking a hit, it's the small stores/Joe Schmo sellers taking the hit IMHO.

In regards to my Puig example earlier, there is no doubt in my mind that if all of the GA/"The Auto Scouts" junk forgeries never hit the market, the authentic auctions from Fanatics starting at $199-$299 would've been sold by now. At least 80% of Puig "autographs" on eBay are forgeries IMHO, if these weren't there, people would realize how few there are, and then you get into "Supply & Demand"... 

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on March 23, 2015 at 1:10pm

My questions were meant to be rhetorical to point out the fact that PSA and auction house reputation are only things that exist because of the number of forgeries on the market and the desire for collectors to have someone help them out.  Without forgeries, all autographs would be on equal ground, and people wouldn't pay to have PSA or auction houses do their vetting for them, resulting in a lower price for the autograph.

See my reply to Steve above about forgeries and the "just right" price range.  I agree with you that supply and demand is a factor, but my argument is that the people (real collectors) that are willing to pay proper prices for authentic autographs already know just how rare the authentic pieces are, and that is already factored into the price they are willing to pay.

Don't get me wrong, I'm against forgeries just as much as the next guy, but I think they are actually inflating the value of authentic autographs in today's market because of the addition of unnecessary third parties and desire to find that needle in a haystack.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on March 23, 2015 at 1:28pm

Heres a good example of what I mean:

Derek Jeter has signed many many thousands of autographs throughout his lengthy career and still continues to sign to this day, yet Steiner Sports charges $600 for his autograph. They are able to do that because of the popularity of Jeter autographs and the large amount of forgeries flooding the market. Their motto is "The Steiner seal means it's real".  Their entire business model is built on people spending extra money to know for sure they are buying the real thing.

Now, if every Jeter autograph on ebay was real - do you think they would be able to charge $600 for his autograph?  Nope. They are able to charge a premium not because Jeter autographs are in short supply, but because of the number of forgeries on the market and their leverage on the fact that he is their exclusive client.

My Jeter ball that I got signed is just as good as their Jeter ball for $600, yet if I sell mine on ebay I won't get anywhere near $600.  Steiner is only able to charge those prices because of the amount of forgeries on the market.

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Permalink Reply by terrier8HOF on March 23, 2015 at 2:43pm

how many people are actually paying 600 for his signature?  I know I wouldn't.  there is no way in hell a derek jeter ball should cost more than what I can buy an authentic Mantle and Dimaggio combined.

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Permalink Reply by Mike T on March 23, 2015 at 2:59pm

I don't know specifically, but they do about $40 million in annual revenue and their business is centered around the New York Yankees, of which Jeter is/was the primary member. I would have to say they sell quite a few.

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Permalink Reply by Joe W. on March 23, 2015 at 4:22pm

Flippers versus forgers is a no brainer. Flippers who sell authentic autographs cannot hurt the hobby no matter what they price their items. It will eventually sell or sit. Forgers are criminals and need to be exposed and gotten rid of.

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Permalink Reply by Sports n Stuff on March 24, 2015 at 2:07pm

Problem is finding the people who are forging and those with authentic autos. Also, if these authenticators are authenitcating fakes(for these forgers) well then it's allowing the forgers to make money and people with authentic autos to lose money.

Guess a question is whose to blame?

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Permalink Reply by Mike P on March 23, 2015 at 4:51pm

The problem, in my opinion, is when people flip forgeries.  Buying and reselling signatures doesn't cause the hobby harm I don't think.  Most times, it involves someone buying an autograph for cheap and getting it authenticated; due to the reliance of many novice and inexperienced collectors on TPAs. 

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Permalink Reply by David S on March 23, 2015 at 5:07pm

100% agree.

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Permalink Reply by Pete Bendu on March 23, 2015 at 5:19pm

The biggest threat to this hobby bar none, is the fact that ebay just doesn't care who sells what, as long as it has a certificate. Billy Bob from Oshkosh can sit there and sign photos of celebrities all day long and print off as many COAs as he wants to go with them, as long as he ships the item on time and the buyer gets it, he gets positive feedback every time.... and the next novice collector sees he is a great seller ....and buys from him because he is getting a deal.

Flash forward a couple of years and the buyer tries to sell his collection for a huge profit, or sends the stuff to TPAs for certification. Buyer realizes he got burned and never buys another autograph. That's one less person in this hobby, one less buyer of our collective real autographs.

This scenario is playing out every damn day, probably more than once. I have loved this hobby since 1979 when my grandfather took me out on the local golf course to get an autograph, and I have spent way to much money on this hobby. In 10 or 20 years when I am ready to sell my collection (before my wife dumps the whole kit and kaboodle for $5 grand when I die) there won't ba anyone willing to buy it. 

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Permalink Reply by Sports n Stuff on March 24, 2015 at 2:13pm

I agree with that comment 110%! If they would care about what's being sold on their site, things would be different however they're making 13% on almost everything sold. All it takes is look at many of these big sellers feedback to determine they don't care. Their will be someone else to step in line to buy something else!

Just like I was looking yesterday at someone whom had graded cards for sale that said "1st Graded"... I had never seen this on this co's slabs and I looked at the persons feedback..the people with high feedback all said it was fake..you'd think that would stop people from buying them right? Nope, people still being suckered into buying them and leaving the same feedback! I think that's why their policy changed to 180 day return policy. But that's gonna lead to such a headache for sellers!

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Permalink Reply by Sports n Stuff on March 24, 2015 at 2:15pm

Also, now theirs a grading company out of Puerto Rico. Im not sure if they are authenticating autographs but lets just say their case looks mightily the same compared to another companies!

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