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Frank Sinatra opinions?

any Sinatra experts out there than can give me an opinion on the attached photo? thanks!

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on March 10, 2016 at 12:43am

Common often sold secretarial.

Eric

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on March 10, 2016 at 10:04am

I see you asked what this secretarial determination is based on. Exam of IP, documents and other secretarials - this is a well known secretarial. All autographs are to be considered forgery or secretarial until proven otherwise. It is your resonsibilty as claimant the establish authenticity.  Sinatra is renown for them. See below:

Best wishes,

                Eric

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on March 10, 2016 at 4:15pm

Just to mention the information and scans above are from the RR Sinatra Signature Study Secretarials # 23 and 24, but the UACC stud...

Was wondering why the op thought it was real? I got the impression he thought it was real -  when he asked how it could be known it is secretarial he said "based on what?". Assuming everything is fake is the best course until there is a reason to think otherwise.

Eric

Permalink Reply by Jason Charnick on March 10, 2016 at 5:07pm

Hi Eric... I was the OP, not the guy who said "based on what?" I have no experience with Sinatra and came here first after I saw this item listed for sale and had a brief conversation with the seller who turned out to be local to me. Obviously, seeing your response and reading the link further, I'll be passing on this one.

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on March 10, 2016 at 5:43pm

So sorry Jason - earlier today I saw a post, now removed, responding to m conclusion saying "based on what?" and I mistakenly thought it was you carrying the conversation forward My sincere apologies.

Eric

Permalink Reply by Dwayne Epstein on March 10, 2016 at 5:50pm

The post was mine. Sorry for the confusion it may have caused. I removed it after I discovered on my own what the basis was. I'm the one selling the poster. If anyone should apologize for the confusion it is I. The reason I thought the autograph was real has nothing to do with expertise as I have none. It was based on the source of the autograph and if it is indeed a secretary then I've been ripped off, too.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/172124882821?ssPageName=STRK:MESELX:IT&...

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on March 10, 2016 at 6:06pm

Hello Dwayne,

That's OK. Simple error. Do you know what a genuine Manchurian Candidate 1 sheet signed by Sinatra would be worth? The eBay poster was $900, then $600 Best Offer -  there is a reason for that.

Seller has a return policy - send email tonight advising, not asking, for return. Seller has one neg feedback for selling fake CD/movie.  Don't be to easy or trusting with that seller -  he states in the auction he knows it is 'worth several thousand" but is letting it go for $600?...riiigghhht.

I'd not pay shipping of $55 to return a forgery/secretarial. Once I was sent a washed lithograph - big ticket - returned and did not pay S&H. My reason? It should never have been sent in the first place. Stick to your guns. Show him the matching secretarial I posted. Think the top one is best, but both speak volumes. Seller chose to offer this with no research. That has to come with some risk.

Best wishes,

                  Eric

Permalink Reply by Dwayne Epstein on March 10, 2016 at 6:34pm

Eric, as I wrote above, I am the seller of the poster! I had it listed first for $1,700 but recieved no response, which is why I relisted it for a lower price. No chicanery involved. Simple supply & demand economics. As I said in the previous message, if it is indeed a secretary's signature then Premiere Magazine royally ripped me off. If that is the case, then I will end th auction, but I need verification of that.
Oh, and one more thing. That one negative comment you researched? That was over a decade agao and as I wrote at the time it was a blackmail attempt. That individual has been kicked off Ebay. My record's pretty clean otherwise so don't always assume the worst of people without doing YOUR research. I'm no expert nor claim to be. I simply posted the Sinatra poster as it was sent to me. No more no less. Thanks for the response, though, as it does clear the air somewhat.

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on March 10, 2016 at 8:50pm

Dwayne,

This is why one doesn't remove posts. I mentioned the ever-lowering price not to suggest chicanery (I never get to say that word), but to speak to the authenticity. It would have sold, and fast. I stand by my statement about selling something you say you know is worth more than "thousands" for just a few hundred. Why would someone do that? It indicates something.

Clearly, I got confused in this thread with you and Jason - for this reason removing posts is frowned upon as it can muddy matters as it has here.

I have not seen the poster in hand, but I don't see any "if" here at all. The signature on your poster is a common secretarial signature. I showed it in my post. Odd you advise me to do research, which is what I do most of the time for authors, collectors and museums, when you were selling a supposedly $1700 autographed poster with no idea if it was even authentic. To your credit it is returnable. Get a quick opinion from Epperson or PSA/DNA and I'm quite sure you will hear a "likely not genuine". Had you spent the $10 or $15 first and did your research you'd not be here talking about this. You might consider ending the listing now, because if someone falls for it and sends it in you may be contacted again down the road when it comes back bad. The bit in bold below from your auction strikes me as hyperbole..."...definite investment..."

Eric

"I have seen items with Sinatra’s autograph go for between 3-5 thousand dollars, making this poster a definite investment in the future. According to the NY Times, his estate continues to rake in millions over such things as personal lighters, notes, etc. I haven't seen his autograph on many (if any) film posters..... Imagine the continuing financial value of a limited-release rare poster signed by the man!"

Permalink Reply by Joe W. on March 10, 2016 at 7:59pm

Secretarial signature. Without a doubt!

Permalink Reply by Dwayne Epstein on March 10, 2016 at 9:06pm

The body of the post was written in sections, mostly from the previous listing, hence the hypebole. Also, based on the provenance, I wouldn't write 'if' as thoroughly beleveed it was real. I got taken. What you failed to comment on Eric, was that provenance. I was clearly ripped off by Pemiere magazine but you failed to mention that. Only that I recieved a negative strike on Ebay YEARS ago.  My comment about research was based on your false assumptions about me. Not odd at all. None of which matters as it's all academic, now. The listing has been deleted. As for writing on a deleted comment, I have no idea why one would do that when it's been deleted.

Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on March 10, 2016 at 9:29pm

It is very good to see you ended that listing, knowing it is not genuine. Well done.

Can't fail to comment on that which was not there - provenance does not really come into play here. Note the word - PROVENance. What you are describing is at best a secondary source, not unlike a dealer. Someone sent you something. Not unlike TTM, which usually yields...secretarials. You mention a failure to do research - you have had that poster since 1988 and never compared it with another Sinatra - but am willing to sell it as a genuine signature and nothing else? Hyperbole, yes, but you have referred to this "Sinatra" signature on your own site as "distinctive" (no one questioned this most common of secretarials?) yet you don't even know what Sinatra's signature looks like. You state the following as fact with no idea if it is even true. An author knows better than to take someones word...

Eric

"PERSONALLY SIGNED BY FRANK SINATRA HIMSELF! The autograph is genuine and NOT a repro, copy, computer-generated, stamped image, or non-authentic signature of any kind. It is the real deal and comes with authenticating paperwork to the winning bidder!

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