Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 12, 2016 at 1:33pm

A photographer contacted me in 2004 with a Rolling Stone magazine he said that Ray Charles signed backstage for him after a concert back in the early 1970s. I had just bought the company that owned Autograph Collector magazine and was fairly new to autographs period. 

The writing was very big, very angular and lines met fairly well in the corners. I made sent emails and made calls and got the few examples out there we could find that were thought to have a decent chance of being genuine--there are so few and almost all that aren't outright forgeries are secretarial.

We published it all in an article called "Is it Really Ray?" None of the others looked like his. They didn't even bear the slightest resemblance to his. Yet he swore that his was signed by Ray Charles and he saw it. But it was backstage, not well lit, at some sort of distance and there were other people by Ray.

That man has become a friend over the years. He's a well-respected family man in his community and was the official photographer for the governor of his state at one time. I trust him implicitly. But when it comes to this album, I think what he thought he saw is not what really happened. Someone else signed it for Ray or helped him so much that Ray just let him lead his hand completely. Although no others have ever appeared that were similar.

Queen's Magic Tour was 30 years ago. Memories like these sometimes have a way of becoming what you want them to be over time. I agree that Adrian's are clearly not genuine in my opinion, although I'm nowhere near as good at Queen as others here. Perhaps they were signed by someone else backstage and Adrian didn't realize it. Perhaps he knows that they're not good. 

But we can't read his mind, so let's not call him a liar on one example. Don't let that keep you from discussing the authenticity and situation as much as you want, though.

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Permalink Reply by Adrian Cowdry on April 12, 2016 at 1:48pm

Steve

I appreciate your comments and thoughts...I have nothing to prove. As I said earlier they are not going anywhere. I had the best blast at that concert and I was one of the lucky ones...whatever anyone says...I don't care.

But some of the people here have been quite rude and I really don't want to be part of such a community. I don't need that kind of tosh from anyone...I don't think any of you would be that rude to anyone face to face.

Please take me off your website. Please delete me from here. Good luck to you all.

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Permalink Reply by Innuendo on April 12, 2016 at 1:55pm

Adrian, you got the repose you did from a few members because you posted a fake item and presented it as genuine. Not only that, but you posted it saying something along the lines of "if you need an example of genuine Queen autographs look at this". You have to understand that this site is linked to Google search. So remember that when a new collector is looking up Queen items to buy and stumbles across this site and sees a fake example presented as genuine, it could mislead them into studying the wrong examples and could lead to them buying fakes. Although I don't know that I agree with all the ways PW addressed the issue, it did have to be addressed.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 12, 2016 at 2:31pm

Adrian,

These members, like most members on Autograph Live, are passionate about authenticity. Forgers and sellers of forgeries are everywhere, with every kind of story you can think of. They show up here all the time thinking they can fool people. It naturally gives members a low tolerance for situations like this one, where someone has a story that doesn't match the autographs. I does rub me wrong when people use the term liar, though.

If you want, I'll remove your account this evening.

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Permalink Reply by Innuendo on April 12, 2016 at 1:50pm

Steve, Queen had about 4 different styles of secreterials done by the fan club and another 2 done by Freddies PA and driver (that'd be Peter Freestone and Terry Giddings, who openly talked about it). However none of those secreterial styles match his fake album. Since the Hot Space tour, Freddie had certain people with him at shows backstage. That was Peter Freestone and Joe Fanilli. Again, none of their hands match this set. A number of signed items from Joe was sold at auction in the 90s when he passed. It's not Freddie's hand, and it's not from the fan club, as nobody from the fan club toured with the boys and even Jacky Smith has admitted to not being at every England show. Even if she had been, these do not match her secreterial hand either. That leaves Brian Roger and John. Again, these don't fan club secs for their hands either and they toured with Jobby (John's roadie/PA) who's hand this doesn't match, Chris Taylor (another roadie for Roger) who's sec sign are well known and also don't match. And Peter Hince. Freddie's roadie who is very kind and never misses an email and is always willing to sign copies of his book. Again, doesn't match this set. Sure, there's a million people backstage but why on earth would his "roadie friend" who got him backstage not get him to meet the band if he already got him that far? I can even overlook that. Maybe the friend didn't have the pull enough to do it and the item was taken away to be signed by a stranger who is never mentioned in books or videos of Queen documentation. But my issue resides with the this: I asked for his roadie friends full name to contact the existing Queen roadies and confirm that people were allowed backstage (although there is a video of Brian May himself being stopped backstage to show security his backstage pass, and photos of Mercury wearing his pass on his belt loop on stage), to which all we get is "Alan". Alan No Last Name. Odd. Ok, maybe he really can't give us his full name. Fine. But another thing is, why if he knew enough to bring an album to be signed would he not have had a camera? Even if he didn't meet the band, surely he couldve snapped some backstage photos that aren't found on Google images. You see, there lies my issue. I don't enjoy insinuating someone is providing half truths, but come on. I'm left wondering about this story and this very poor fake.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on April 12, 2016 at 2:44pm

This is all great information and good points, Innuendo. My photographer friend with the Ray Charles didn't take any backstage photos either. He probably wasn't allowed to, but I forget.

I agree, nothing adds up here. More than anything, I'm uncomfortable with calling someone a liar. It's a term that often ends the productivity of a discussion.

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Permalink Reply by Innuendo on April 12, 2016 at 2:47pm

I agree, Steve. I'll have to look back at my previous comments but I don't think I did use the term liar. I certainly implied it, which may not be much better, but I think that was probably unavoidable considering the questions concerning his story.

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Permalink Reply by TradeGeek on April 12, 2016 at 1:52pm

"Autographs are in the big scheme of things extremely tough to authenticate...provenance is all."

I know absolutely nothing about Queen autographs. But I have been collecting sports memorability of all kinds for decades and my family has been involved in the art trade for even longer. I wanted to make one point. 

I agree with Adrian that provenance is very important. So important that I believe it can, if strong enough, override expert opinion. However,  a story is not provenance. Provenance, by definition, is verifiable. Ownership, location and chain of custody ect..  with documentation to support.  

Anybody can make up a story. That certainly is not provenance. Absent of provenance, expert opinions is all that is left. 

I won't call Adrian a liar. I am not knowledgeable enough to even have an opinion on those autographs. But I do disagree with characterizing a story as "provenance". 

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Permalink Reply by Grungegarden on April 12, 2016 at 1:58pm

Exactly TradeGeek. And when he mentioned his roadie friend that he claimed got him in we knew we could finally validate or discredit his story since we know actual Queen roadies. But he refused to give the full name. Can't validate the story and the item is about as fake as fake gets then hey what can you do.

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Permalink Reply by TradeGeek on April 12, 2016 at 2:30pm

The last thing I will add, any story anybody tells is really irrelevant. Not even worth wasting time on. Given that one can't prove a negative, it doesn't make sense trying. 

That said, below is an example of what I am familiar with regarding provenance. This is an early example of a early 1920s Pueblo Maria Martinez pot from New Mexico. Her early work was often unsigned. There were many copy cats at the time who's work has been represented as a "Maria" pot by less than honest dealers. A nearly identical pot from the same period by another potter may sell for $500 to $1000. 

But with proper provenance, this one sold for $60,000. 

The item wasn't sold on a story. It has real provenance. 

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/15686/lot/6111/

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Permalink Reply by Chris Petersen on April 12, 2016 at 10:43pm

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Permalink Reply by Innuendo on April 13, 2016 at 12:40am

Sorry Chris, but that is absolutely not genuine and Roger would not have passed that. That's a secreterial signature from the fan club. Not signed by the band.

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