Comment by Richard S. Simon on January 6, 2018 at 5:33am

Steve, the hobby at least to my eyes, seems to have more con artists and forgeries than ever before. If you look daily at ebay and see the flood of items coming from Florida that gives you some idea. If you look at Coaches Corner flooding the market (and now we see the chain of ownership of some of their garbage, which is what I have always thought, going from CC to galleries and tourist traps) and if, like I, you get e mails daily offering you obviously bogus crap, then you start to think that this business has never been worse. Then when you see a con artist on the cover of a magazine, well you just throw up your hands and want to scream. 

Comment by Richard S. Simon on January 6, 2018 at 5:38am

"People who have money like to make more money. Can't you see that?"

"Maybe he did buy the items at decent prices thinking he could make profits. How is that any different than people who sell their items here for profit? NONE !!!!"

Wow, thanks for that revalatory insight cat. People who have money like to make money. I never knew that. You must be so much more intelligent than the rest of us here. "Maybe he bought items at decent prices." DECENT PRICES???? $5K for a potential million dollar item???? That is what you call decent prices??? I call that "they saw him coming and he was too stupid to know it or he was blinded by greed." This whole thing reeks, from the seller to the buyer. This buyer is no saint and no hobby hero.

Comment by terrier8HOF on January 6, 2018 at 6:19am

a fool and his/her money are soon parted

Comment by CJCollector on January 6, 2018 at 7:02am

I agree with Richard.

The "Forgery Industry" is bigger than ever.

Comment by sling on January 6, 2018 at 7:14am

I was one of many who were burned by the Forensic eXAMINER FRAUD.

Comment by Richard S. Simon on January 6, 2018 at 7:19am

Sling, details would be helpful.

Comment by Christopher on January 6, 2018 at 7:57am

Coming to this discussion late, but a word about the responsibility of the victim in this case.  I was brand new to the hobby 3 years ago.  My first "major" purchase was a signed Hotel California album for $500 that turned out to be completely fake.  I found this website and presented the LP.  What ensued was a huge discussion about the COA, including participation by the seller of the item and if I recall a legal representative of the company that issued the COA.  Anyway, over time I've learned how to operate in this dangerous hobby and have a few thoughts.  First - it doesn't take 10 minutes of research to realize you're looking at a fake.  It take months or years to be able to "self-authenticate".  Any notion that he should have known better is just wrong.  Second - what I remember feeling when I got burned was absolute amazement that such fraud could exist so openly.  It lessened my faith in humanity, temporarily.  And I was just dealing with one guy, not an established business.  In no other area of life, with the possible exception of the used car business, is there such broad dishonesty.  This was shocking to me.  There is a general expectation in civil society that transactions are basically honest.  But in this hobby, it's buyer beware.  Third, speculating about the motives or personal financial condition of the buyer is, in my opinion, quite petty and distracts from the key issue here.  The individual or aggregate prices of the items purchased is immaterial.  Getting cheated feels exactly the same regardless of the amount of money that changed hands.  Further, the idea that a financially successful person should have known better is also incorrect.  Financial success often comes from being an expert and good at one thing, not in everything.  Fourth - does the victim in this case feel personal responsibility for his buying decisions?  Of course he does.  I'm sure it you asked this person, he'd say "Yes, I was a complete idiot in this situation."  But should he have known better?  No.  How could he have?  And last point - I don't fault the victim in this case one bit for accepting his settlement and moving on.  His primary responsibility is to himself and his family - certainly not to an unregulated, often corrupt hobby about which he knows nothing and has only had terrible experiences.  The constant bickering, evidenced in this very discussion, is almost enough to make a person considering coming into the hobby walk away.  Without new participants, we'll just end up trading with each other and all of the truly great stuff we have collected with become commodities and worthless, which would be a shame. 

Comment by Richard S. Simon on January 6, 2018 at 8:09am

Nobody said that it takes 10 minutes of research to determine fakes. But with all the negative stories on the internet about BAD SELLERS it does not take very long to find out who the bad sellers are.

Mr Odobas bought these items for "bargain prices." He then offered them to auction houses. How long did he have them before offering to sell them to auction houses? That is what I would like to really know. Was he truly an innocent victim here? Was he a rock n roll fan who loved the idea of owning and displaying this stuff? Or was he just looking to make a fast buck because he knew what he was getting into but did not realize that the auction houses that he tried to sell to were wise to the garbage items that he owned?  The more I think about this the more I find it hard to believe that this guy spent $170K totally unknowingly. Maybe I am wrong but I just wonder.

Comment by Rick Meyer on January 6, 2018 at 8:17am

"The "Forgery Industry" is bigger than ever."

And the forgery industry is growing everyday. Once they see that rarely forgery dealers are prosecuted and the money is lucrative more and more are joining. What's the worst that can happen? Bad feedback and Chris Williams rant or two, maybe a quick dying thread on AML.

We see it with some of the TPA's. Once they saw faster and easier money authenticating volume from dealers the one by one submissions from the collectors took a back seat. Look at Steve Grads most recent work. And folks think he's the best? Give me a break. All of them hiding behind the protection of the its only an opinion statement.

Bottom line is so few in the population care about autographs or collectors. The vast majority of people are confused about  whole authenticating process.......law enforcement included. 

Comment by sling on January 6, 2018 at 9:59am

my burn by "forensic exam" is well covered here as it involved American Royal arts.  I will just add that i was a little greedy as I saw the price was low and wanted to flip it in England.  I now know that low prices are fake indicator but was sold on the authenticity cause of "forensic Examiner" which I now know to be worth nothing

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