Authenticity is Everything
Liza Minnelli Autopen - Kids, Wait Till You Hear This!
****ATTENTION: Steve Cyrkin, who manages this website, has asked for photos of your Liza signature.
You will need to take high-resolution images (3,000-4,000 pixels wide) of Liza's first name, last name, and smiley face SEPARATELY, as close up as can be, and saved as PNGs or the native file format (NOT JPEG).
Please take individual pictures that isolate each segment as best as possible.
Send to: editor@autographmagazine.com.
****Photos must be submitted per these guidelines****
Separately, feel free to also post your photos on the forum below for others to see.
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****WELCOME TO THE DISCUSSION****
“Signed” copies of Liza Minelli’s new book, Kids Wait Till You Hear This!, actually include autopen signatures.
Multiple signatures appear to share identical geometry in specific segments when overlaid.
⚠️ Still frame from a video showing the overlay process between two signatures:
Check out these videos showing the overlay testing process used to compare the signatures.
Note how “Liza” matches up
-First round, note how the “Love” appears to overlay nearly exactly
-Second round, the circle of the smiley face appears to overlap closely, and the L is starting to line up as well
-Third round, the Z and the A in “Liza” appear to lineup closely.
Notice how almost all of the smiley face lines up on this one
-With a slight adjustment, notice how the Z and the A start to align as well
Watch the top of the smiley face. All I am doing is bringing the circle of the smiley face into line. Watch how the Z falls into place. Watch how the top loop of the L falls into place. The “A” is a little off and also the “I” but you can see how they seem to be off by a very small and consistent distance.
Watch how the “OVE” lines up exactly on two examples received by the same person
Notice where “Love” is lining up on these and how much of Liza lines up with a slight shift
Notice how much of the entire signature overlaps
Notice how much of the entire signature overlaps.
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Some of the segments are individually lining up….yet the two signatures appear different on face and when overlaid as a whole.
Here is a visual walk-through of identifying matching segments in overlay. This reflects how the issue was initially discovered.
Example:
First, notice how the L lines up in “Love”:
Make a slight adjustment that then brings the “ove” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the L of “Liza” into line:
Slightly adjust again to bring the Z and A into alignment (also notice the “I” and the comma):
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One thing that’s also interesting: If you take the dust jacket off the book, Liza’s autograph is imprinted on the front hard cover underneath.
That signature matches a verified example that appears to date from at least the early 1990s:
What’s concerning is that some of the signature patterns inside the “signed” books seem very close to that same 90s example, which makes it look possible that the earlier verified signature may have been used as a template for the autopen signatures in the book:
(Book cover signature overlaid with a signature from inside book)
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The signatures in these books appear to have been produced by an advanced autopen system capable of introducing subtle variations in letter structure and placement, likely intended to disguise the mechanical origin.
Please see this video to learn more on how this works:
A thread has also been created to make others aware of this type of autopen usage and discuss if interested:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/beware-of-the-new-a...
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You may also visit the original Liza Minnelli thread, established when the book was announced, to read about the initial development of this issue:
https://live.autographmagazine.com/forum/topics/liza-minelli-kids-w...
Tags: Autopen, Hear, Kids, Liza, Minnelli, This!, Till, Wait, You
Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by John Gladden
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Jason - thanks for your reply and the info for contacting TMZ. Might it be a little premature until “we” (this group) feel more definitive about this and put a “case” if you will together? Probably will only get one bite at media publicity and need to have this put together to present.
I have a friend who used to be in print media in Austin, TX (I live just outside El Paso, TX). I’ll contact him tomorrow to get his take on how to approach and if he has any contacts.
This group might want to put together a press release to send to the various media reps and post on this site. Links in such a release could point to examples found that appear (or allegedly are) autopen.
I found an in person event in NYC on March 23, where Liza and Michael Feinstein are to be present and signed books distributed to ticket holders (and also available for those purchasing and watching live remotely). Is there anyone in this group who could attend on Monday, March 23 and pose the autopen question directly? It’s unclear on their site if the in person is sold out - I’ll try calling them tomorrow. In the meantime I purchased a ticket to the live online event which includes a “signed” copy - bringing my Liza allegedly autopen collection to 5 copies. Ugh!
I’m attaching screenshots from The Temple Emanu-El Streicker Cultural Center below. They link to Eventbrite for purchase. The center’s info is:
1 E. 65th St., New York, NY 10065; phone 212-507-9580, website: streicker.nyc
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Permalink Reply by Jason H
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I REALLY appreciate all of what you said!! This is great stuff.
Regarding your "one shot" advice, I completely agree 100% which is actually why I waited until now. Timing is everything and I've given this an immense amount of thought. Autopens are proven. If the bookplates turn out to be real, it would start to cool things off. The best timing may be right now.
The reason why I mention TMZ is actually because they are kind of aloof to how real media is run. I don't mean this in a bad way at all, they are just different while still trying to be similar. They do things their own way which works great most of the time. I believe if they know now, they will continue to investigate. They would understand the autograph collectors side of this and continue monitoring as being a pop culture event. They wouldn't require a formal press release. If it's not the right time, we can continue hounding them without being instantly dismissed as we would with major media. I just feel like they are a bit more accessible because of past experiences.
I'm not sure how much of a case is left to put together honestly. Matt M. did a tremendous job updating the main post of this discussion. There is no longer any doubt. These are 100% autopens. We need to change everyones perception of what an autopen is. There can now be variations and pressure changes. It's no longer as simple as matching up templates exact and looking for dots at a beginning and end of a line. No more shakiness or uniform pen thickness. Our hobby is in serious danger and the information needs to be spread ASAP for awareness. I can't stress enough that these are proven mechanical signature already with "AI" (if you will) enhancements added in
I love your idea of the NYC event and encourage it as well but whoever attends absolutely needs to be prepared. Her PR team will be ready for those questions, if they even answer them at all.
Honestly these are awesome points you are making and am very interested to hear your friends take as well. I need a break regardless so I'll hold off and see what tomorrow brings. As much as I already did, it's still a drop in a bucket for how many news organizations are out there. If I lost out on timing with one, I keep moving on. Thanks again for a very thoughtful and informative response and great to have you as a new member on here.
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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin
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For all the reasons you mentioned, I think you're spot-on with your Saturday reply on Page 3 about the UUNA TEK iAuto Premium. We need to see more examples to make sure it can reproduce Lizas as polished as these. But if it's not this brand, it's something quite similar.
There's a much faster, higher volume version, The Ultimate, which is the one they likely used. The signing tech seems to be the same.
I think they used 2 kinds of markers, a regular medium-point Sharpie-type, and a chisel-point medium Sharpie or similar. When you see thinner or tapers in the same pen stroke, like the face circles sometimes have, those are likely chisel points. Strokes that stop flat instead of rounded at the end EW further evidence of that.
More evidence:
In UUNA TEK's own video on the iAuto, and the one Jason posted, you'll see that not only does the pen move, the paper that it's writing on moves, in a lot of short, sharp motions.Lester Freeman sent me sharp, HIGH resolution images of the two Lizas in the books he just got. Zoomed in, I see up/down edge spikiness throughout that could have come from those sharp up and down paper movements. Zoom in:
Thank you, Lester, I really appreciate these.
You too, Jimmy.
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There has been some tremendous work done here by so many and I am so grateful to everyone. Well done on outlining what is a most unfortunate situation.
Yes, those of us who have bought the book believing our local book sellers who had no reason to question the validity of the book.
I think there is now a serious problem which at the most basic level spoils our hobby, but the issue goes wider than this. Book publishers are constantly plugging new signed editions to the national chains and the independents and they then plug them to us. If we stop buying then in many cases it’s going to be the small independent retailers who are affected and they are the good guys trying to run small businesses to put bread on their table. How many of these will lose their income stream.
Imagine if you are a book seller, the publisher lets you have 50 books signed by XYZ which turn out to be autopen, that’s 50 books sent out, 50 books returned, 50 refunds, so much extra work for them. It’s not fair on them.
What is clear is even in the marketing of Autopens is they are basically there to defraud the public. “We’ll give you a signature that is indistinguishable from the original”
Very shortly it’s going to get to the point that unless there is physical evidence of someone signing books in the publisher’s office then we’re going to have to assume they are fake and won’t buy them.
Unless the top of the industry, those who negotiate between the signer and the publisher, get their house in order the issues this nasty episode shows will just get worse.
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I agree whole heartedly with everything you say. Nearly imperceptible autopens will certainly end any trust there was remaining between author/publisher, bookseller, and consumer/collector.
To that end, my personal hope would be that booksellers would go back to tried and true - in person signings, like those that were largely eliminated after the pandemic. That’s where I’ve purchased and witnessed nearly all of my purchases signed over the past 30 years. I enjoyed the experience, perhaps being able to shake hands and have a brief back and forth with the author, take pictures (if allowed), and save my receipt and event information with the book.
I’m sure that many of you have also met Presidents, First Ladies, astronauts, and various other celebrities this way. It’s a more enriching experience, even though it comes with its own challenges. But at least you know you purchased the real deal.
I for one intend to return all my purchases for a full and complete refund because, assuming these are autopens, the sales were fradulent. I didn’t buy an autopen book, I purchased a signed by the author book as stated. And those two terms, “autopen” and “signed” are not interchangeable.
While I sympathize with small, independent booksellers, I believe all sellers have a duty to ensure their signed copies, if they choose to sell them, are authentic. Perhaps having likely thousands or tens of thousands of these returned will start the tide turning against publishers sending out supposed “signed” editions.
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Permalink Reply by Matt M.
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Steve, wow….thank you for digging into this. This is very enlightening. I looked at so many of these signatures. I 100% agree about a different markers being involved based on what I’ve observed in trying to do overlays. I also considered if it was the quality of the pictures, or marker degradation.That very interesting about the paper moving and also about chisel points. Many of the segments overlay so well, but there are very slight differences on the tails of the letters and so forth. Making sense now.
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Here’s what’s Waterstones tells me:
Thank you for contacting Waterstones.
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Interesting, I’m glad to see the retailers reaching back out to the publisher.I’m tracking on all the updates posted in the last few hours and trying to catch up.
I’m so glad to see others joining and chiming into the conversation with what they know, and any suggestions. It’s very helpful - thank you.
BIG thank you to Jason H for helping get the word out beyond the forum.
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Matt - loving your avatar. Where have I seen that before??
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Lol, thanks Marcus. I felt like the little smiley face was mocking/taunting me when I was looking at all the autographs. I decided to just embrace it lol.
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I’m very sorry that you have been disappointed by your recent order of Kids, Wait Till You Hear This!
The books that we are sent from the publisher are signed by the author before we receive them, but the publisher give us the details prior to publication for putting on our website. If a book has been signed by autopen, or if the author has signed a bookplate rather than the page itself, we are told so that our customers are informed when they place their order.
We have not been told by Hodder & Stoughton that these books were signed by autopen. Our Biography department has reached out to Hodder & Stoughton to ask for details about the Liza Minnelli signatures. When we have heard back, I will be in touch again about the next steps.