Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Jason H on March 29, 2022 at 9:49pm

Thanks for the response. I see what you are saying. Most autographed books I buy to have cut are tip ins or book plates, so the celebrity has never actually held the book. In this case however, you are correct. This book was held by Bernie. I can see how there is value in that. I could argue that my plan is not to toss the book once the autograph is cut. I have never thrown away a book. I would donate it to a library if I decided a book is not worth keeping. In this case, I agree with you, even if I do cut the autograph, the book will still be part of my collection. It would just be separated. 

Worth and Value have different meanings to people. When you say its never worth cutting a signature out of a book unless circumstances call for it.. do you mean a monetary worth? I do have examples of where cut signatures are proven to be monetarily worth more. Im sure this is not always the case.. but like I was saying to Eric, there is still a market for cut autographs.. 

If i decide to cut this autograph, it is true I may be decreasing its potential monetary value vs what it could be worth if left intact 30 years from now. But there is another type of worth not being thought about. The enjoyment I will receive having this paired with an Elton signature, easily accessible along side many other great autographs hopefully for the rest of my life. If there is a slight monetary reduction that stems from my decision. It may still be worth it to me because of the enjoyment it would bring.

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Permalink Reply by crazyrabbits23 on March 29, 2022 at 11:18pm

The market is currently such (IMO) that there has been a severe -- and unneeded -- premium on cut autos. Most of the cut autos I've ever had the opportunity to buy were either incorrectly framed, fell out of style (from a design standpoint) very quickly, or had a significant monetary boost only due to the "premium" (I use that word very loosely) of having it BGS or PSA authenticated.

Personally, I don't buy cut autos, nor do I buy signed books with the intent to cut said autos. You are correct in assuming that a large number of modern first books are tip-ins/bookplates -- but that wasn't the norm 30-40 years ago. There are plenty of signed books I have that have additional provenance in the form of being specific limited signed editions with special markings (i.e. Gordie Howe's last book, "Mr. Hockey", had a specific signed variant where the cover jacket had a "Signed by" emblem integrated directly into the cover work, and wasn't a sticker). Certain bookplates denote special limitations (as seen in the Dylan auto that came from a gallery signing posted here... last year?) that aren't available normally.

Other autos have additional text from the author that provides clues for where/when it was signed -- for instance, I have a book right now I've consigned to a private book dealer where it was signed by 30+ politicians. Only one of those politicians commands the most value, but the fact that it was signed by an entire caucus lends more credibility/information to the piece than it would have normally.

Another example -- I have a signed Ken Dryden book where he didn't sign it in his usual style. It was only addressed as "Ken" to a prominent Canadian author who interviewed him on a radio show, and the value is in the supporting paragraph he wrote detailing their connection and the value of the book as a "gift". If that was cut, someone would likely not know who it was or put doubt on the book as a signed piece if it was just the "Ken" variant signature by itself -- and given how frequently I've seen cut Dryden autos hawked for ridiculous prices, I'll keep the page where it belongs in the book.

The only other time I've considered cutting an auto -- and it's a story I posted here last year -- was a copy of Robbie Robertson's "Testimony", where, due to the way the signed limitation page was bound, it causes a massive amount of "pilling" along the spine when the book is opened, and is in danger of wrecking the page if it's opened too often. Still, I have not clipped that out, primarily because it's far better for me (from a pure cost/profit standpoint) to keep the page in the book and sell as-is versus try to clip it out and get it framed/authenticated.

On a long enough throughline, most signed books become far more valuable, particularly in the cases of historic figures and/or additional writing/ephemera/etc. I realize that you haven't posted photos, but I feel the book would be far more compelling as a whole versus cutting it out and presuming there's a market/enough authentication on its own to merit that course of action. Personally, it's not a choice I would ever take, but you do you.

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on March 29, 2022 at 11:50pm

All good points.

The Dylan book you refer to is called Face Value, and I am very lucky to own one of only 12 copies made available for sale in May 2021, to celebrate Bob’s 80th birthday.  It is signed on a National Portrait Gallery, London bookplate.  Given how rare the signed edition is, how widely Dylan’s signature is faked, and the availability of the standard edition, I’m actually glad Bob signed to a bookplate, rather than flat.  It makes it that much more difficult for anyone to fake convincingly.  The very thought of cutting his signature from the book is horrific, to me.

The only book I’m considering cutting is my copy of the Genesis Publications Ziggy Stardust book. I used to live in New Orleans, LA, and my copy of this much sought-after book was water damaged in Hurricane Katrina.  The slipcase had to be thrown away, and there is damage to the rear board.  The signature page itself is beautiful, but the book brings me great sadness every time I look at it.  I almost sold it a couple of months ago, but the ass who made me an offer later reneged on our deal.

What do folks think?  Given the circumstances, should I cut out the signature page?

Damage to rear board:

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Permalink Reply by michelle on March 30, 2022 at 12:23am

wow, so how did you get a copy of the Dylan book?  incredibly rare, and imo I wouldnt cut the gneneis one , even with water damage its a much sought after book

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on March 30, 2022 at 12:39am

Thanks for your advice on the Bowie book, which I will take into consideration.  Still open to further opinions.  Ultimately, I’d rather sell it, as it makes me sad in its current state.

As for Dylan, I’m a longtime collector, and I keep my ear to the ground.  I don’t just collect autographs.  I own some extremely rare Dylan records, including an acetate, which once belonged to Bob himself, of an uncirculated track.  I happened to catch wind of the Face Value book via a fan forum, and jumped on it immediately.  Right time, right place.

Given its rarity, I felt it important to document the circumstances surrounding the Face Value book, as these things are so easily forgotten over time. My friend Michel runs an excellent website dedicated to printed Dylan material.  You can read about it, and see photos of my personal copy, here:

https://www.bobdylan-comewritersandcritics.com/pages/odds/painting&...

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Permalink Reply by michelle on March 30, 2022 at 9:38am

oh thats really interesting, good that you got one and what do you think of the drawn blank series.  I have seen them at Castle Art

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on March 30, 2022 at 9:55am

Thank you.

The Drawn Blank Series is a mixed bag; some I like, others not so much.

My favourite series of Dylan’s art is the Beaten Path Series.  I own one called Early Morning, Golden Gate Bridge.  I don’t want to clog up the thread with off-topic photos, but if you stick the details in Google you’ll see the image.  In person, it’s really lovely.  The giclée print process is very high quality.

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Permalink Reply by Eric Keith Longo on March 30, 2022 at 4:27am

For a damaged piece possibly as mentioned before, but the page would be more than a clean cut Bowie out of that page. 2002 Bowie's are rather common.

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Permalink Reply by Jason H on March 30, 2022 at 12:16am

This is all great info! Thank you for taking the time to explain all of this. So, what I take away from all of this is there are different tiers of signed books.. ones like you mentioned are completely untouchable, off limits and should not be cut.. I completely agree with this...

The lowest tier, an example I cut, is a Stevie Van Zandt autographed book I picked up for $15. Cut it to create its own mat alongside the Bruce Springsteen which I had cut from the Renegades book. Renegades, for anyone reading and unfamiliar, is a deluxe edition book signed by Bruce Springsteen and Barack Obama. (In case someone finds this thread years from now) I was able to pick up Renegades cheap. Currently it has way more value as separated cut signatures vs complete. 

As for Taupin, this signed book would be somewhere in the middle of these extremes. (Van Zandt vs the books you mentioned) Would you consider this a fair assessment? This is why I value everyone's opinion. I agree to a point that Taupins book will be more valuable left uncut. But that's only considering that, if cut, Taupins autograph would be matted on its own. This would not be the case in my situation. You can correct me if you feel I am wrong, but its my opinion that Bernies autograph would have more value alongside an Elton signature vs left inside this book. I just don't consider the book as being limited in any way. The only reason it is special is because it was hand signed and that is all. The book, aside from the signature, can be picked up easily for $10 to $20. Its only rare because there are not many Taupin signatures circulating at the moment. If his autograph alone remains a hard to find item, it just makes sense to pair it tastefully with a signed Elton since an autographed pair may become much more sought after in the future even if its a matted piece.

Can I ask, how do you feel about these "lower tier" autographed books which can be easily picked up at Barnes and Noble or Premiere Collectables. Do you have any interest at all in these? The reason I'm interested in continuing this thread is because when I was considering cutting my 1st signature out of a book, the forums only had 2 answers for me.. either 1. don't do it, or   2. You own the book and can do whatever makes you happy. There was no discussion of regret, loss of value, or any possible ramifications. I want people to be able to read through this thread and once they are finished, be able to decide if cutting their signature is the right choice for them. This is why I would love to figure this out from every angle. If there are no ramifications for cutting a "lower tier" book, someone out there right now, considering cutting and framing an Alicia keys signed book they just picked up for $20 will go ahead and do it. As a framed piece, it may inspire them to become the next version of Alicia keys as opposed to just being left inside the book and forgotten about. 

Appologies for the long comment. I have a lot on my mind with this subject. Thank you for bearing with me 

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Permalink Reply by crazyrabbits23 on March 30, 2022 at 6:48pm

Well, at the end of the day, it's your enjoyment and your choice. That being said, if I was a collector buying such a rare signature, I'd be much happier buying something that I know had some form of personal connection to the subject (they held it/signed something in the book/etc.).

There are all sorts of factors that can impact what to do with a signature. I'd say for anything modern (with some exceptions), a cut auto is a much cheaper and more attractive proposition if you're looking to save on shelf space or aren't interested in the material -- but there are some books and signatures I wouldn't touch regardless. The Gilmour/Samson "Theatre for Dreamers" fiasco where people were cutting off her signature, using rubbing alcohol to remove or just clipping out Gilmour's sig springs to mind.

Typically, I don't buy books on Premiere/B&N/etc., again, for a variety of factors. U.S. shipping for me is ridiculous right now. In some cases, I've speculated that either the author has signed a lot more copies than they've let on, and/or the books will get deep discounts down the line. Some titles have silly markups for no reason at all because of the inflated collectibles market that was a direct correlation with COVID.

Going to another item I own, I have that Farley/Spade book, which I'm sure is something that a collector would consider clipping Farley's signature out of. Still, I would feel that would not only lose the feeling of knowing I had something he held in his hands (a book), but it had additional info that allowed me to guesstimate that it was previously owned by someone affiliated with Tommy Boy. That's information I likely wouldn't have gleaned if it was cut out (Spade's signature is far more common).

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Permalink Reply by JMS1223 on March 30, 2022 at 5:36am

I am having this dilemma in wanting an authentic Michelle Obama signature. I know I can buy her deluxe signed edition of Becoming for like $250-$300 but I really only want her signature and not necessarily a signed book. However she is extremely rare to find in any other form. I don’t really want a signed photo as they cost more and the signatures are not as nice as those found in her signed book. 

I bought the Renegades book and I cut those signatures so I could have them separate. Now I would love to have a Michelle Obama to put with my Barack Obama signature. 

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Permalink Reply by Jason H on March 30, 2022 at 10:11am

I was on the fence with buying Renegades even when Amazon had the price drop but I couldn't resist. The issue I had was, Obama is so young.. there is always the possibility that he will start pumping out signed books out like Jimmy Carter which will cause his price to decrease as he gets older. Its an unknown. 

I have cut a Jimmy Carter book recently and have no regrets about doing so. There will never be a shortage of his signed books in our lifetime. 

Michelle Obama could go so many ways over the next 20 years. Its possible she might run for president. If she were to win, would you be upset about cutting her book? This is why I want to make sure we consider every angle for the Taupin book. I am still undecided. I want to take in everyones opinion and let it all simmer for a while.

About 15 years ago, I gave away my Donald Trump signature to someone who really wanted one.. i thought, no big deal, ill easily get another.. i procrastinated and forgot to get it done.. its one of my nany regrets but I couldnt predict his presidency.. The market for these items can fluctuate based on so many factors. I can tell you one thing.. if I had a copy of "The Art of The Deal" signed, and I had cut it before he became huge, I would definitely have a regret.. but its such an iconic book. Im not bamiliar with all of Michelle obamas books but if you are considering cutting one, take your time in deciding which book. Make sure its one that will remain in circulation and will be easily accessible for those who want one.

The previous comments in this thread are making me consider protecting the integrity of autographed items, which is why I brought up tiers. Eric taught me that context is an important factor for autographs and should always be considered. Crazyrabbits23 has shown me that there could be different levels of book collectors and the ones telling you to never cut are only thinking about high prices expensive, rare books. I 100% agree those beyond a certain level should never be cut. Some, even if they are damage should remain untouchable. Im still waiting for more opinions for the "average joe" books.. the ones we can all pick up new at barnes and Noble for $20 to $30.. those are the majority of the ones I feel ok cutting so far. 

Michelle Obama is definitely on a higher tier so there will be a lot to think about. Keep an eye on this thread. My goal is to make this a great resource for people who have a desire to cut a book but are unsure. I for one HATE leaving decisions undecided.. I can't do it.. I always try to make a decision final and move on with my life, knowing with as much certainty as possible that I made the best decision for myself and will not have regrets.

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