Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by 5816nick on November 23, 2022 at 11:51pm

Just like all his books are you mean?  (Bigger Sigh) I'm afraid he has cast doubt now which will always be in the back of everybody's mind - well all except one person's that is!

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Permalink Reply by JIMMY JAMES on November 21, 2022 at 8:38am

I'm so glad that it appears all my friends and members here in the Autograph Live community are getting a full refund. A free copy of "Philosophy" is a bit of a start, however, I still feel there should be more compensation for the severe STRESS this obviously caused the purchasers. The TIME spent by our members to rectify this fraud/scam should also be considered and compensated...

and Mr. Bob Dylan himself should have to make this right somehow...

"Now, yonder stands a man in this lonely crowd A man who swears he's not to blame All day long I hear him shouting so loud
Just crying out that he was framed

I see my light come shining From the west down to the east Any day now, any day now
I shall be released"

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Permalink Reply by 5816nick on November 21, 2022 at 8:49am

I'm happy you are all getting  your refunds later in the week and agree With Jimmy, they probably think they have got away with it, was it Steve who said he had a Lawyer friend, did they get back in touch with you? 

I don't think there will be as big an opportunity as this one to send out a clear message that we are not going to take autopens any more. 

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Permalink Reply by JIMMY JAMES on November 21, 2022 at 8:40am

I JUST NOTICED THAT WE HAD 999 REPLIES IN THIS THREAD, SO I WILL TAKE THE 1,000

AND PERHAPS FINAL REPLY TO CLOSE THIS THREAD: 

I had posted this within minutes of the Dylan "Philosopy" book being re-offered as a "hand signed copy" by SS and Coles, USA and UK. (I was reply #4)...So perhaps this could be a laugh to end the thread.

Some of us may have stepped in s**t but at least the community pulling together and especially  Jason H helped us get out !!!

*******

Kind of reminds me of that old Cheech and Chong skit:

Come here
(What)
What that
(I don't know)
Look like dog s**t to me
(Yah, looks like dog s**t to me too)
Hm pick it up
(What?)
Pick up
(Oh)
Feel like dog s**t ?
(Yah, feel like dog s**t )
Smell
(Hm?)
Smell
(*Sniffs* uh)
Smell like dog s**t ?
(It smell like dog s**t )
Taste
(Huh?)
Taste
Taste like dog s**t ?
(Yah, tastes like dog s**t )
Hm good thing we don't step in it !!!

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Permalink Reply by 5816nick on November 21, 2022 at 12:35pm

Sorry but LOL at the idiots on ebay listing these between $645 and $1000

They are worthless! Not even worth the face value as some idiot has written on them all! 

https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_nkw=bob+dylan+philos...

I like the description below on the one priced at $645  !!! 

THE PICTURED AND ACCOMPANYING COA HAS BEEN DEEMED TO BE FALSE BY THE CEO.

YOU WILL NOT BE RECEIVING A SIGNED EDITION. THE AUTOGRAPH WILL BE AUTO PEN!

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Permalink Reply by Findbooks on November 21, 2022 at 1:38pm

I wouldn't say that they are worthless. They have novelty value. Give it a couple of years and they will be selling for high prices as "the infamous autopen edition".

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Permalink Reply by crazyrabbits23 on November 21, 2022 at 2:27pm

If there's one thing you learn at second-hand/thrift shops, it's that the perceived value of books plummets greatly in most cases. The $50 MSRP the base Dylan book is going for will plummet down to $15-20 for most online resale sources within a year.

There is no scenario where the autopen books will get an extra $550 value tacked on to them, particularly as the word is out and copies are being refunded. And that`s factoring in the novelty value, too.

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Permalink Reply by Findbooks on November 21, 2022 at 3:45pm

I disagree. The first print run for the book was probably 500k copies, minimum.

Anything - and I do mean anything - which distinguishes a copy of this title from that vast supply makes it collectible. There are only 1000 copies from that vast number with the autopen, In the book-collecting community that makes it an exception and therefore 10 or 50 or 100 times more desirable than the "trade" first edition.

Mark my words - in 2 or 3 years (or maybe 5 - depends when he dies to some extent), there will be fake "autopen" copies being sold for $500 or above on ebay, lol, and some booksellers will be looking to get a lot more for the "real" deal.

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Permalink Reply by crazyrabbits23 on November 21, 2022 at 3:52pm

I have come across numerous LE/signed versions of works from plenty of artists, big and small, that put unreasonable premiums on those copies -- which subsequently sank on the resale or secondary market. What you've brought up is actually a big problem right now in the collectibles market - the idea of "artificial scarcity", where titles that break from the norm are perceived to have some intrinsic value or collectible nature, but are being artificially propped up at the distributor level when there's nothing particularly notable about them.

The book is functionally the same as the $50 regular book, save for an additional (found out to be autopen) page and a different price that isn't reflected in the quality or nature of the book. If this was a special boxset that had some unique design or packaging, you might have more of a case, but there is no rational reason why a $50 title is suddenly going to be worth 10-12x more just because someone might believe that a fake signature is worth something. That isn't how it works -- not even the Gretzky autopen books I highlighted in a previous post have that scarcity, and those were a far fewer number and came out years before this Dylan release.

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Permalink Reply by Findbooks on November 21, 2022 at 4:26pm

Let's agree to revisit this thread in 3 or 5 years and see what's what then.

I agree entirely with your point about "artificial scarcity" but isn't that the nature of collecting, to some extent - that many people attach a premium to exclusivity. It doesn't need a slipcase or even a number. If it is different in some way it is intrinsically "better".

Books will sometimes be changed in some minor way during production - for example, an incorrect ISBN might be amended, or a misprint in the text corrected. Even if the book is relatively undistinguished otherwise, when this information is revealed suddenly there will be interest and demand for that defective, elusive copy. It's the nature of the beast - there's no accounting for it  (except by psychologists, perhaps).

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Permalink Reply by crazyrabbits23 on November 21, 2022 at 5:08pm

Indeed, we shall see. In slightly-related news, I hope this fiasco played a small part in Penguin Random House's decision to 86 their merger with S&S, which was announced this evening:. That would be the most delicious schadenfreude:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/penguin-simon-schuster-merger-scrappe...

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Permalink Reply by Stepeanut on November 21, 2022 at 10:08pm

In my 40+ years of collecting, I’ve learned that not everything that is rare commands a high price.  Quality plays a bigger part than scarcity when it comes to resale value.  Ideally, you want both, but scarcity alone isn’t always enough.

Let me ask you this: who is it that you imagine will pay $600 for this book, knowing that it is an autopen?  What is the target demographic for an item like that?  Because I can’t think of anyone in their right mind who would buy it at that kind of price.

There will always be yahoos offering stuff at inflated prices on eBay, but I’m not seeing punters queuing up to buy these.  Not book collectors.  Not Dylan collectors.  They don’t want them, certainly not at silly prices, because there’s no intrinsic worth in them beyond the novelty aspect.  Serious collectors pay premium prices for items with real historical significance, not novelties.

I’m a keen Dylan collector.  I own a couple of legit signed items from him; many rare records and CDs; rare concert memorabilia; even an acetate of unreleased music that once belonged to Bob himself.  I also collect signed first edition books by a host of different authors I’m interested in.  My point is, I’m not afraid to put my hand in my pocket for quality rarities.  In fact, I passed on a $1,000+ auction lot of rare Dylan concert tickets in order to buy this latest signed offering from Coles Books; a decision I’m now kicking myself over.  So, by your logic, I should be the target demographic you think exists for this autopen book.  But I’m not — because it’s little more than worthless crap.  I might pay £10 to £20 over the price of the standard edition, purely for the novelty aspect, but no more than that.

So, again, I pose the same question to you: who is it that you imagine will pay $600 for this book, knowing that it is an autopen?  If it’s not me, or another serious collector like me, who is it?

What I do believe we’ll see, in three-to-five years’ time, is these autopen books being passed off as legit, signed Dylan items, with the Simon & Schuster letter offered up as authentication.  They’ll be offered on eBay, and one or two may even find their way into auction houses.  The current furore will be forgotten, and one or two people will be fooled into believing they are buying a legit, signed Dylan book.  But no one in their right mind will pay a premium price knowing that it is autopen.

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