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Uneducated Ebay buyers helping to drive forgery sales!

I started going through the listings for all Mantle Williams and DiMaggio triple signed photo's. Only one that was not authenticated was good. Every other listing, both for sale and sold, was fake. I went through the feedback for those individuals who purchased these ale items and contacted them through the message system alerting them that they purchased a high dollar fake item. Four people responded to me thanking me and all were sent for authentication and came back as not authentic. One guy "flatironart" responded by asking me for proof. I explained why it was fake, I sent him some photo's of authentic signatures, I suggested he get it authenticated, and suggested he come to this site to get an opinion and read the posts about these fake items. He responded by boldly telling me that it is real and he is reporting me to Ebay. Out of curiosity, I looked up this guys high bidder items and just about everything he has purchased is fake. He bought several Mantle signed balls and photo's, all fake except one photo. He purchased a bunch of Ted Williams, Joe DiMaggio, and Sandy Koufax items, all that are not authenticated are bad. I'm talking thousands of dollars!

Here is my issue. I'm sitting here and thinking about how these buyers are driving the forgery market by creating the demand. They keep buying this crap, so the forgers keep providing a supply. I'm not talking about the $20 photo that we ignore, I'm talking about $200-$600 on items like the Mantle Williams DiMaggio photo. If we can eliminate the demand, then we can greatly reduce the supply. This needs to be attacked on both ends. What do you think?

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on June 5, 2013 at 6:26pm

Steve, excellent post.

I, as well anyone, understand your frustration.  The majority of so-called autograph collectors are impulse buyers.  They have zero knowledge of autographs.  Most of them still believe that if an autograph is listed on Ebay, then it must be authentic.  We all know that is the furthest from the truth.

The slimy autograph sellers of forgeries on Ebay know exactly the mentality of Ebay autograph buyers and they take advantage of that situation.

Ebay seller "Sports2Collect (Lebron James forgeries)" is a prime example of a autograph seller knowing the mentality of Ebay Wannabe Autograph Collectors.

Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on June 5, 2013 at 8:01pm
I have always contended that these mass produced, mediocre fakes are not intended to fool educated collectors. They are meant to fool casual buyers... And there are enough of them to keep the forgers and their distributors raking in cash.

Coincidentally, my lastest blog post is regarding the respnsibility of buyers when a transaction involves a fake: http://www.zipper68.blogspot.com/2013/05/how-responsible-are-buyers...
Permalink Reply by Steve on June 5, 2013 at 9:03pm
You are 100% correct, they are meant to fool the casual buyer. I cannot believe how many of these buyers keep thinking they are getting these great deals on items that, if good, would bring double the amount. They keep buying as if they are so smart and are outwitting the rest of us by making these wise investments. Flat out ignorance!
Permalink Reply by Null on June 6, 2013 at 6:58am

The worst part, is they want to believe it is real SO BAD that they discredit our advice/knowledge/facts. 

I have had probably 50 people say to me: "I trust a FORENSICS EXAMINER'S opinion more than some troll" 

It's all about "COAs" and "Paper proof". I had some friends over last week and the first thing they said was "So you have paperwork on all of this right?". I then go on to explain how I don't need paperwork on Mantles/Mattinglys/Riveras/etc because I study them and KNOW it's real. And how I'm apart of an autograph website that fights forgeries and help each other out with purchases. And of course they didn't really buy it... 

It's pretty ridiculous at this point. The "proof photos"/bogus COAs have taken over the hobby. If it doesn't come with a COA, people are turned off, they assume it's fake. (When in reality, it's the fakes that come with a "COA" usually!) 

Just a bunch of naive morons who think they got a LeBron signed jersey for $89.99

Permalink Reply by Barry S on June 6, 2013 at 9:43am
Great discussion. You are right Ryan. A friend of mine got a Mantle two years ago. He was so excited he couldn't wait to show me because he knows I collect. I didn't like it so I showed CeeGee. He said bad forgery. My framing guy that I have became friends with showed me a Mantle bat he got 6 months ago. I showed Chris, he called it firewood. Now my main goal is to keep my friends from filling their house with thousands of junk. Both my friends disputed me when I told them. My one friend I don't talk to anymore, my framing guy doesn't bring it up. I think their attitude is that I think I'm the only one who can have authentic pieces,,and I pay too much for mine. Its hard to convince people how don't want to hear the truth. You sure are doing the right thing Steve, my hat off to you.
Permalink Reply by Steve on June 6, 2013 at 11:43am
My wife tells me I'm wasting my time, but I feel this obligation to at least try to help, just as I would want someone to help me out. I really want to tell this guy from Ebay (flatironart), instead of throwing your money away on worthless garbage, please donate it to charity!
Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on June 6, 2013 at 12:00pm

I'm sure that the people that you're helping really appreciate it. There's just so much of it going on that it's hard to make a substantial dent in the overall problem. If you keep contacting buyers, I imagine that you'll eventually be kicked off of eBay. Until eBay does something about it, I just don't see how it's going to lessen to any great degree. 

Permalink Reply by Null on June 6, 2013 at 12:07pm

The problem is eBay doesn't care what you sell, as long as they get their fees. It is a seller's world, the seller has their listing/pictures/description/"COA"/"guarantee" and ultimately it comes down to the buyer. 

Permalink Reply by CJCollector on June 6, 2013 at 4:23pm

Barry, I can relate to your story.  When I first (a decade ago) started exposing forgeries I tried as hard as I could (in a diplomatic manner) to explain to buyers of forgeries when their items were forgeries.  They would always get defensive. 

Then they watch Drew Max on Pawn Stars and are convinced that Pawn Stars/History Channel hired a FDS that knows what he is doing.  Of course, we know differently and it's difficult to convince buyers of forgeries (especially garbage certed by Drew Max) that they own a forgery.

I could easily write a book on this subject.

Permalink Reply by Steve on June 6, 2013 at 4:32pm
I just had this conversation with my idiot brother the other day. As a gift for his son, I got him a really nice Gordie Howe signed 16x20. I double matted and framed it myself. His first question was, "Does it come with a certificate"? I tried to explain to him that anybody can attach any piece of paper to anything they want. He then says "How do I know it is real"? Even though I have been doing this since 1979, have had Gordie sign for me in person about 9 times, have over 17 items signed by him, my brother still wants that stupid piece of paper. I then told him it was authenticated by JSA at the signing. He asks me who JSA is? I then had to explain to him that end of the business.

Here is the sad part. My brother is a Colonel in the army. I sure hope he doesn't get to make any decisions regarding anything that involves common sense!

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