Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Charles O'Brailey on August 17, 2013 at 2:34pm

Sure I have.  As a matter of fact the vast majority of my collection is in person, however.......Lets say that Derek Jeter signs 10 autographs a day on average.  That means that the supply would be low and the demand would be high.  Then you have forgers producing 500 to 1000 Jeter forgeries per day.  What that does is devalue the authentic ones because buyers won't spend 300 for your autographed authentic baseball when they can buy one from a forger for 50 or 60 bucks

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Permalink Reply by Peter C. on August 17, 2013 at 1:30pm

I dont rate my "collection" by financial value, but by my "feelings"... those stories related to each autograph are the most valuable thing for me. Sometimes I go on ebay just to look at some nice and also hillarious stuff, but because I´m not autograph seller and I´m not autograph buyer - I really dont mind the financial value...

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 17, 2013 at 1:49pm

Peter, you make a great point. 

90% of my collection is of Tom Tresh.  My Tom Tresh collection has ZERO to do with dollars.

But for those who Buy & Sell, it is a huge issue.

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Permalink Reply by CJCollector on August 18, 2013 at 8:41am

But there is NO DOUBT that the proliferation of forgeries has monetarily devalued the collections of authentic autograph collections!!!!  No doubt!!!

The "Florida" forgeries, which are still being "mass produced," continue to infect the hobby.

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Permalink Reply by Charles O'Brailey on August 17, 2013 at 2:36pm

Peter,  I only have one problem with your situation.  Lets say when you die you want to leave your collection to a loved one.  They may not have the same feelings towards autographs and they may want to sell it and enjoy the money by buying a new car or perhaps even a new house depending on what you are leaving behind.  With that being said, with all of the forgeries entering the market place when they go to sell they may only get 20% of what the autographs are actually worth.  

That bothers me.

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Permalink Reply by Peter C. on August 18, 2013 at 1:53am

There is one problem - I live in the country where autograph business is almost not existant (which has also positive affect - there are no people who collects signs just and only for business)  or better to say - there is extremely small "trade" and even sellers sometimes dont know financial value of some stuff (for example recently I saw authentic John Deacon autograph being sold for 15€!)... so if the trade is not working here - I would definately NOT recommend to sell any collection. Truth also is that I dont know how the situation can change in the future. I dont know why, but in our country - autograph collecting is not taken as "investment" thing - but I know that it is investment thing all around the world. I know that its possible to sell stuff on ebay, but I would probably never use it, because (as you said precisely) - the price must be artifficialy lowered according to fakes prices, but I think that real auctions might be solution.

In fact - me and my friends discussed this issue - and we all said that if I should try to earn the money from the collection, we would do it in different way than selling the collections. That´s also what I would recommend to my descendants...

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Permalink Reply by Mike Kaminski on August 17, 2013 at 3:04pm

On the flip side for someone like me who's only collected for about one year, prices are cheaper because of all the forgeries. I obviously dont mind haha, but am totally against the forgery business. That being said, I wish eBay had some system to detect forgeries. Here's my idea:

All items with COAs from reputable companies (PSA, maybe JSA, UDA, Steiner, etc.) can be listed for free if they can provide proper evidence like the COA and corresponding serial number.

All items without a COA go through a screening process. Here's my idea how that works:

eBay partners up with say PSA who are arguably the most reliable authenticators and charge a $5 insertion fee. Lets say $4.50 goes to PSA and $0.50 (excluding extras) goes to eBay. PSA provides their quick opinion and within 3 days the item can be listed if it passes the quick opinion.

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Permalink Reply by BallroomDays67 on August 17, 2013 at 3:40pm

The problem with your analogy is that it assumes that all autograph collectors are equally knowledgeable about your autograph. There would be a certain number of people who have studied your autograph, and who aren't going to fall for the 4,999 forgeries. Those people are going to be competing for your one autograph, or will be relied upon to authenticate your autograph. Your casual fans and/or bargain hunters, most of whom wouldn't be willing to pay $2K for your autograph, will be the ones buying up most of the forgeries.

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Permalink Reply by Charles O'Brailey on August 17, 2013 at 3:51pm

Ballroom, there is no problem with my analogy.  In fact you just stated my point.  People who are buying a signed baseball for their son, will end up buying a forgery instead of the real authentic signature, which in turn means that there is one less person in the market for an autograph because they already have what they think is an authentic signature.

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Permalink Reply by Anthony Bautista on August 17, 2013 at 4:02pm

You mentioned that you where one of the elite football authenticators at one time . Wouldn't someone who deals in football knowing the autograph is coming out of your collection be almost 100% certain that autograph is most likely authentic and willing to spend more ? If you have a rock solid name in this industry and your family says this is from the so-so collection . Then you should have zero problem selling it at the higher value . RR , Heritage , and Premiere sell of peoples collections and give the collectors name and they seem to have no problem selling stuff at high value. If I bought a autograph from a Mike Wehrman or a Roger Epperson collection . I would think it would hold its value forever . I think most people who are educated know where to buy authentic autographs from .

I think the athletes and new show promoters themselves make there autographs go down in value. Here is my point . Yasiel Puig , Mike Trout charge $249.99 or more for there autograph . They haven't even closely hit the HOF status of a Joe D or Mickey Mantle . Yet there autograph already cost as much or more than those guys . Anyone buying them at that price is not gonna ever probably get a profit later on down the road. Unless they die unexpecdtly of something . Then you have the living legends like Dan Marino , Joe Montana , Reggie Jackson , Gordie Howe , so on and so on . All these guys do all day is sign there name for a price. You can pick up a 100 pack of Montana 8x10s with his sticker on them for $20 a pop . You cant resell them for much more. So if you are in a in person ebayer seller , how much can you make off a Montana or Marino if they sell there autograph for cheaper than you just invested in Gas,time and what ever else you pay for .

Then you have the Guys like Arod , Tejeda , Reggie Bush , Matt Leinart , Canseco , McGwire , Sosa, who's autograph was valuable at one time . But has done there own harm to there marketability . I don't know , I just think modern date sports autograph business is a hard sell .

Most people don't collect to make a profit . They collect for fun .

 

I have 3 complete sets of autographed Master champions from  Horton Smith to Adam Scott . I can care less about forgeries ruining the value of it , because I know 100% my autographs are authentic in that collection . I do hope one day my kids can sell them off. I know without a doubt have no trouble doing so .

I also have a huge music collection of some rare autographs . Same thing , the fakes go for less and so they should . I know putting them in the right auction house and putting the names of where I got them from and who looked at them to authenticate them means a lot and will help them keep there value .

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Permalink Reply by Steve Zarelli on August 17, 2013 at 5:29pm

Anthony, you make some valid points... certainly autographs coming from credible sources or collections obtain a higher value and fakes go for less.

But it overlooks the undeniable fact that, if fakes were removed from the market, there would be MORE competition for authentic exemplars, thus driving higher prices.

Two examples I can think of off the top of my head are Charlton Heston and Jimmy Stewart. Once the Heston secretarials were identified and many removed from the market, prices went up. What was routinely a $20 - $25 autograph and most often secretarial, now goes for $40 or more in authentic form. 

JImmy Stewart is another with mass-produced fakes. I suspect Stewart would easily be $75 or more if the herd of fakes was thinned substantially. Now, they often sell for $25 - $40.

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Permalink Reply by Steve Cyrkin, Admin on August 17, 2013 at 6:16pm

You are so right, Mr. Zipper. Although the Heston secretarials particularly (as well as classic TV names like Jackie Gleason) are examples of reputable TPAs hurting the market by not doing their job.

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